Feliciano：So pleased to be here to talk to Professor Wang Wen, to discuss the bilateral relationship between Brazil and China, and also the situation in international affairs. Brazil is facing very difficult moments now, because of its ongoing relationship with the United States. I think we have a lot to discuss here.

My first question is exactly about this. Recently, the United States has imposed a 50% tariff increase on Brazil. In April, China also faced a tariff threat of up to 140%, but ultimately China succeeded in making Trump back down.

So, what experiences has China gained from countering U.S. tariff hikes? These are very important lessons for us. Professor Wang Wen, could you please elaborate?

Wang Wen：Thank you, my friend. It’s my pleasure to have this dialogue with you. Firstly, thank you for your recognition of China’s resistance to the U.S. tariff war. Actually, I have to share with you a very important secret: China has been preparing for this tariff war for at least seven years, since the Trump 1.0 era.

Since Trump launched the first tariff war in 2018, starting with the kidnapping of Meng Wanzhou in Canada and the embargo on Huawei, China has abandoned all illusions about the U.S. In our view, the nature of American imperialism has been fully exposed.

The U.S. will not abandon its strategy to contain China. It cannot be considered a selfless, fair, or just country. Relying on the U.S. cannot ensure national security. China must rely on itself. Since then, China has accelerated the process of “de-Americanization,”particularly in three areas: technological independence, resource independence, and trade autonomy.

Let me share my three key points:

1.Technological Independence.China’s annual R&D investment has grown by around 15%. We have caught up in the Fourth Industrial Revolution, not just through software like DeepSeek and TikTok, but also in hardware: drones, robotics, and semiconductor chips.China has increasingly achieved domestic substitution of tech products.This has strengthened our ability to counter U.S. pressure in tech trade.

2.Resource Independence. China has implemented a very precise rare-earth strategy. As you know, China accounts for about 90% of global rare-earth exports. Without China’s rare earths, the U.S. cannot produce many high-end weapons or advanced technology products. That’s why the U.S. had to negotiate and compromise with us.

3.Trade Autonomy. China has promoted a diversified international trade strategy. In the first half of 2025, China’s trade with the U.S. declined by about 20%, but total foreign trade increased by 2.9%.Trade with emerging markets like Africa, Central Asia, and Latin America (including Brazil) grew by 10–15%.

In 2014, U.S. trade made up 20% of China’s external trade; now it is only 10%.In other words, while the U.S. remains important, it is no longer indispensable. China now contributes over 30% of global manufacturing output and plays an irreplaceable role in the global supply chain.

Chinese products are highly competitive globally. So, as you noted, in today’s bilateral trade context, the U.S. needs China more than China needs the U.S.

On the surface, China is resisting U.S. tariff pressure. But in essence, China is fighting against U.S. hegemony and striving for independence from American dominance. We are open to cooperating with the U.S.—but not on our knees.

It must be earned through struggle. China has realized that the U.S. is unreliable. We must rely on national independence and sovereignty.That’s why I say: Brazil is also making similar efforts.

I’ve been to Brazil five times, met many Brazilian friends in São Paulo, Brasília, Rio de Janeiro, and Belo Horizonte.Brazil is also pursuing national autonomy and is not afraid to challenge the U.S.This is admirable.

China supports Brazil’s quest for national independence and economic autonomy, and is committed to building win-win, equal cooperation with Brazil.

I believe Brazil has the wisdom and capacity to confront U.S. tariffs. That’s my suggestion and the experience I wanted to share. 

Feliciano：Thank you, Professor Wang Wen.Those were very good points. I do believe there are many similarities in Brazil’s relations with China and with the U.S. Let me share a few figures. In the 1990s, the U.S. accounted for 35% of Brazil’s exports. Today, in 2025, it’s down to 12%. In contrast, China was only 1% in the 1990s,but now accounts for 30% to 35%, depending on how you calculate it.

There’s a clear change in Brazil’s external relations. I think Brazil–China ties today are at their best in decades. President Lula has worked hard since taking office to reframe the bilateral relationship with China. He has a good relationship with President Xi Jinping. Every time they meet, new partnerships are formed—Chinese investments in Brazil increase, and Brazil gains more access to the Chinese market.

However, the U.S. is still powerful. Geography matters: Brazil is closer to the U.S. and around 1.5 million Brazilians live in the U.S. Even though China is our largest trading partner, the U.S. is still our biggest investor.

In terms of cumulative investment stock, the U.S. and EU are still well ahead of China—though China is rapidly catching up. We’ve seen diversification in Chinese investment: originally focused on energy, power grids, and infrastructure, now expanding into other sectors.

 In São Paulo, one avenue is now known as “Little China Street” , because of the number of Chinese companies and new Chinese restaurants. It’s an ultra-rich business area. There are reportedly 55 new Chinese companies in that neighborhood alone.

That’s just one city. During President Xi’s state visit to Rio in November last year, many new investments were announced.

The most symbolic was BYD’s acquisition of a factory in Bahia—previously operated by Ford for over 80 years.

Now it’s owned by a Chinese company. Some analysts believe BYD may hold 10% of Brazil’s auto market in the coming years. I’m waiting to buy my first Chinese car.The relationship is changing.

But that doesn’t mean Trump and the U.S. don’t have influence here. There’s a strong political group in Brazil—especially during Bolsonaro’s term—that favored the U.S. over China.

But even Bolsonaro couldn’t ignore the farmers who export to China.They pressured Congress and forced the foreign minister to resign because of his anti-China stance. China didn’t have to do anything. It was the Brazilian farmers—who voted for Bolsonaro—

who stood up and said: “You can’t be aggressive toward China. You must be diplomatic. Even if you dislike China, keep it to yourself.” This showed that Brazil’s economic and political ties with China are now just as important as those with the U.S.

Only two countries can influence Brazil domestically: the U.S., traditionally; and China, as a rising power. We have deep trade ties with both. They both wield leverage over Brazilian society.

But now, Trump’s tariff war poses a new challenge. Since the second wave of tariffs, I’ve been giving interviews daily to Brazilian media. The 50% tariff on Brazil is the highest—only China faced more.

Most countries got 20%–30%; we got 50%. Why? Two reasons:

1.Big U.S. tech companies (Meta, Google, etc.) don’t want to be taxed or regulated in Brazil. There’s an ongoing debate in Congress and the Supreme Court.

2.Trump wants regime change in Brazil.He wants Lula to lose the 2026 electionand be replaced by a right-wing, pro-U.S., anti-China president.

So this is an attempt at regime change,starting with tariffs—and likely escalating into a prolonged crisis.We must devise a national strategy to contain—not necessarily fight—the U.S.,and manage the risks from this economic warfare.

Let me give one final example:The U.S. could sanction Brazil’s military procurement.Many of our weapons are imported from the U.S. or Europe.If they withhold parts—for helicopters, jets, or submarines—we’re extremely vulnerable.

So we must diversify, including our military suppliers. Right now, we don’t use any Chinese weapons in our military. There’s a lack of trust.But look at India–Pakistan conflict: Pakistan used Chinese aircraft and won. It proved that Chinese weapons are world-class—comparable to Western technology. So we must diversify. That’s the key.

Just like you said: China reduced its U.S. trade share from 20% to 10% while growing total trade. Brazil needs to do the same.

Wang Wen：I think you have pointed out a very important point: nowadays we have to rethink about U.S. hegemony. Not only rethink, but also unthink.

Back to our question—you are invited to join our coming human rights round table on the human rights between China and Latin America.

So you mentioned right now—I totally agree that all the countries, especially emerging economies like China and Brazil, we have to keep our necessary sovereignty to protect our economic independence and autonomy. Not only the economy, but also the human rights and other topics.

So I have to share with you that—and then I would like to listen to your viewpoints on human rights.

Why do we want to organize such a big round table between China and Latin America on human rights? Because I think nowadays we face similar conditions. We need to rethink about U.S. human rights value. I don't know whether you know, in the past, some Chinese often worshipped western human rights values, especially in the human rights protection value, and thought the United States was our destination.

I don't know what Brazil thinks about it, but 20 years ago, 30 years ago, we often thought U.S. (human rights model) is our destination. We should grow up like the U.S., especially regarding our human rights.

But now, we no longer worship or yell for the West. We are even reflecting on the path of western human rights protection.

So what I want to share with you is that in my opinion, western human rights protection is based on capital but under the banner of freedom. If you are rich in the U.S., you will enjoy very good human rights protection: clean water, high-end communities, legal service, medical facilities, social security. But if you have no money or are poor, then your human rights will be very bad.

In the COVID-19 crisis from 2022 to 2023, the U.S. had more than 2 million deaths due to the infection—and most of them were poor. So in essence, the COVID-19 crisis was a crisis for the poor.

In contrast, China's human rights protection is more equal and more referred to the vast number of middle- and low-income people.

That’s what I want to share with you—the China’s socialist human rights protection value or path.

In China, the price of basic public service is very low. I know in Brazil it's the same. For example, the subway ticket is about half a dollar, which is 15% of that in the United States.

There are free lawyer assistance services in China, and the cost of lawsuits for the poor is very low. China’s general medical expense is very efficient and cheap. If you have a fever or bad cold, you can go to a hospital at any time and get quick and affordable treatment instead of having a private doctor.

I have worked in the U.S. many years ago, and I can guarantee that in China, people with a monthly salary of 1000 USD enjoy more complete basic social services compared to those with a monthly salary of maybe 5000, 6000, or even 10,000 USD in the U.S.

I have to say in China, the rich and officials are uncomfortable because the taxes on the rich are very high, and they dare not accumulate profits and wealth recklessly. If they show off their wealth publicly, they will be strongly condemned by the society. Officials are strictly managed, and the discipline inspection of Chinese officials is the most strict in the world.

I know those issues are controversial, especially in western public opinion. Another thing I have to share with you is that Tibet, Xinjiang, Hong Kong, etc.—they are often accused in the western media. I dare say most of them are lies and fake news, and are not worth refuting. The West has no right to accuse and discredit China’s human rights development.

I think sometimes, as you mentioned, they also contain and demonize Brazil.

So now we have to say, when we are talking about human rights—because we will meet at the end of July on the Round Table on human rights between China and Latin America—what we should pay more attention to is to respect the human rights development path of each country. Perhaps the U.S. has its own blueprint to human rights development, and if the American people agree, we have no right to criticize it. But China also has its own path to human rights development. The U.S. has no right to criticize or intervene.

So mutual respect and mutual learning about civilization are the best ways to treat the human rights development paths of various countries.

So that’s what I want to share with you.

And also I want to ask you—how do you think about Latin American human rights, and how do you think about the coming possible cooperation on human rights fields between China and Latin America?

Feliciano：Thank you for the question. I think of human rights for us here in Brazil—it’s a very important issue.

Because we suffered very much from a military dictatorship in Brazil for 21 years. And when we returned to democracy in the 1980s (depends how you count—1985 or 1990), the new Brazilian governments, one after the other, have enforced human rights in Brazil.

Brazil signed the vast majority, almost the totality, of human rights international treaties to protect ourselves—because we have a history in our own country. There was some resilience supported by the United States in 1964 that imposed a military coup in Brazil. That was 21 years of dictatorship. A lot of Brazilians were persecuted and were sent to jail, or murdered, or sent abroad.

Human rights for us from a political point of view is essential. But also from a social point of view, it is key in Brazil. However, we are a developing country. So when it comes to social rights, mostly speaking, we are lagging behind.

Brazil has improved a lot in terms of social access to health care—from sanitation to vaccines. The help that we received from China during the COVID crisis was very helpful. But we still have a lot to do.

I do think, for example—I don’t know China very well—but I think if you are a poor Chinese, you are probably much better off than a poor Brazilian. Because you will have more access to a number of social agencies of the state of China that can provide them with health care, with sanitation, in a way that we still don’t have.

In Brazil, the constitution protects every single Brazilian—at least from a legal point of view. So, for example, we have free health care in Brazil. I have a couple of American friends who are in Brazil and suffered an accident. They had to be sent to a Brazilian public hospital. They received the entire care for free. They did not pay a single dime for the entire health care.

So I talked to them—how did it go? I mean, you went to a Brazilian hospital, you had injury, they fixed you, and you didn’t pay? One of them said to me: “This was the most democratic experience I had in my life—because I entered a hospital suffering, they fixed my problem, I walked out without any debt. I didn’t owe any money to anyone.”

This is enshrined in our constitution.

Our hospitals are not the best hospitals—not these amazing hospitals that you see in America or that serve the Brazilian rich. These are basic public hospitals, but they fix you, they provide you with basic health care.

So when it comes to social rights and human rights in Brazil, we talk about providing the people with basic means—from education, from a health point of view, from sanitation. We have a serious problem with sanitation in Brazil. For example, if you go to Manaus city in the heart of the Amazon Forest—it’s a big city with 2.5 million people. Only 10% of the population have access to sanitation. 90% of the population have no sewage system. The possibility of getting diseases there is much higher because you have no sanitation in the city.

So you see, we are really lagging behind. We still have a lot to learn from the Chinese experience—how to solve these basic social problems that are still lingering in Brazil.

I agree with you. And also I really learned a lot from you about Brazil.